Look! Immediate Release

Madhukar:
Peace
Let it be peace amongst all beings in the universe, let it be peace with you here, let it be peace.
Welcome!

(silence)

Iím very happy you came here, so many people.
Itís a very special day, because you are interested to find out: ìWho am Iî?
You ask yourself: Who am I beyond this person, beyond my education, beyond my job, my ideas and plans? Who am I really?
I did not come to bring you another teaching, neither another religion, nor another philosophy, because you have had already enough of this. I simply came to tell you: Relax! Everything is fine! (laughter)
You donít even need to relax. The person might enjoy to relax, the body and mind might enjoy to relax, but your true being, the essence, who you are, doesnít need to relax, because you are peace itself. This understanding is very precious.
Traditionally, spiritual people had to live up to rules and morality, they had to practice and study a lot, to suffer a lot, they needed to meditate and to do exercises, Yoga exercises, Tantra exercises, whatever ñ praying, chanting, believing, practicing for many lives, at least for one life, and if you believe in reincarnation for ten thousand lives. Until you meet somebody who tells you: You are already free! Look!
This is very special. Before you had to go somewhere, into the jungle, in a cave, and if you were very lucky, you met a master, who had this understanding of absolute freedom, because most gurus donít know this. They teach you that you have to do this, you have to do that. And this cannot be freedom. Whenever you have to do something, it is not freedom.
Some of you donít need words, because your whole life, you have known that what your teachers tell you, and your parents, and what the church tells you, is not absolute Truth. They all try to give you their best, but itís not absolute Truth. Your source, You are something precious, which cannot be described in words. Whenever we start using words a concept emerges. Ideas and concepts mean religion. Religion is great if you can believe, if you are satisfied with promises of the future. Because the religious guys tell you, if you behave well here now, if you behave the way we want it, then in heaven you will be fine. For me this was not enough. I said: ìIf there is heaven, then heaven must be now, heaven must be here.î I was not satisfied, neither with religion, nor with philosophy and psychology. I wanted to find out what absolute Truth is. And ever since I know, I show everybody who wants to find out: It is You!

(silence)

(birds are singing outside and inside a coffee-machine is making some noise)

After I had dropped in this silence of the heart, words took over with the transmission: ìBirds are singing and the coffee-machine too.î But this deepness, this silence of our heart, which hears the birds and the coffee-machine and which sees thoughts, feels relaxation or tension in the body, this silence, this witness, cannot be explained by words. From a certain age onwards, we concentrate our whole life on these experiences of our body. We concentrate with our thoughts and we absolutely identify with that, because we got encouraged by our parents and teachers that this is natural, that is how life is. And we forgot what we really are.
If these thoughts and your physical experiences have brought you absolute happiness, then Iím satisfied. Iím not coming here to take away your happiness. If this procedure makes you absolutely happy, eternally happy, great! But if it doesnít make you happy, not totally happy, then you have to look and find out who you are, who you really are. And who can say: ìIím absolutely happy?î I have not met anybody, except for one man, my master, he was happy. Why? Because he knew who he is.
As we identify with our moods, with how we feel, sometimes good, sometimes even better, sometimes not that good, depressed or frustrated, there will always be this game of positive and negative. But if you really look and ask ìWhat is my essence, in which these changing states take place?î Then you will rediscover your true nature and you will not be touched, neither by goodness, nor by badness.
Sounds interesting? (laughter among the visitors)

Questioner: And now the trick!

Madhukar: The trick?

Q: Yeah, how do you get there?

M: Be here.

Q: I am here.

M: You see, like you, by all means, I wanted to know this trick. I wanted to have this understanding. So I was around this master, my master, which at that time I not even called master, because my importance, my ego, didnít allow me to say this. I was very independent, very proud of being powerful, and very happy. I was even happy of my frustrations. So I was very proud and did not call him master, but still I would stick around and try to get this trick. And in these two years a lot of things happened. Then one day, I wrote down all the doubts I had and I asked him seventeen questions, very important questions, because I wanted to get rid of any doubt I had. Later, I listened to this interview many times. I would say, out of these seventeen questions, only one was nonsense, one was stupid; all the other sixteen were very important questions. And on top of it, after these seventeen questions, a poem came up, I wrote a poem. He wanted to answer these questions in satsang. At that time he wrote it down, because he was not hearing that well anymore. He was 84 years old, very powerful, but his hearing was not so well. So I was sitting with him face to face and it took two hours. So in the very end, when all my doubts had gone, then the poem came. And after this poem he said: ìNow I will give you my secret.î

This trick you want to have? You have not spent two years with me, you have not asked seventeen important questions and you didnít give me a poem yet. So you give me nothing and I should show you the trick? He just gave me this trick, you see.

(silence)

Q: I know the trick now.

M: What do you know?

Q: There is nothing to know, just to look.

M: No, that isnít true. You did not understand. The first part is right: ìThere is nothing to knowî. Then you say: ìJust to look.î No, you have to understand: ìWho is the looker? Who looks? Who is looking?î This you have to understand.
I did not answer him, I just said: ìThank you.î

Q: Well, thank you.

M: You donít have to copy me. It doesnít work. It happens naturally. I just told you the story and my story is not better than yours. Thankfulness, tremendous thankfulness happened to me. And through his grace, mysteriously, this transmission worked. In my case it worked in such a way that afterwards really dramatic things happened in my life. They had to happen, because they were old, millions of years old, they had to manifest. Some things and events have to manifest before you are free. I donít wish you these kinds of happenings. I wish you only wonderful happiness. Somehow mysteriously, this transmission worked, because itís a very powerful lineage. Through Papaji and his master Ramana Maharshi, this transmission came to rest in me and tremendous things happened. Itís just a very powerful lineage.

So, first you have to clear out any doubt you might have. These you have to bring out, otherwise, if some doubt remains, it will keep poisoning you. As it is said: ìOne dead fish poisons the whole pond.î If you have one dead fish in a fishpond, you have to take it out, otherwise all other fishes will die too. So first clear out your doubts, then the understanding: ìI donít have to know anythingî, is already very good, ìI have to know nothing!î So what remains? Knowledge is gone. Mind is gone. What remains?

Q: Well, I want to avoid getting into wordplay, but I would call it consciousness if I have to give it a name. It is not an object, I mean, itís a feeling.

M: Feeling is thought!

Q: Yes, thatís the problem.

M: Thatís the problem, you see, everybody talks about feeling. Since the seventies everybody talks about feeling. Before that you didnít hear about it much. Now everybody has to feel, it became popular. And the wives liked it, because they could tell their husbands: ìYou have to feel more.î Feeling is just an old experience, which is still stored in your brain and in your body. So who feels? Who? This you have to put your attention to, in stead of putting your attention on feelings. Just put your attention on Self itself: Who feels? This attention you correctly call ìconsciousnessî. When consciousness is pointed to the Self itself, it will blossom and purify, but instantly. This understanding is instant.
Also in my case this understanding was instant and it manifested in the form of trust.
I trusted him, even though my life was not immediately perfect after I met him. Somehow, I was still a slave of feelings and thoughts. But the understanding, that this man speaks the truth, was immediate. It made absolute sense to me.

I was very lucky that I trusted the man, who did not sell another religion or did not sell another philosophy, another teaching. He was just emanating freedom. And freedom can never pollute you, because freedom is freedom. Everything else pollutes you; everything else puts weights on your shoulders: knowledge, teachings, practices, but freedom can never pollute you.

Second Questioner: There is some confusion in me and it is about this subject of meditation and knowing ìwho am Iî. I was in Poona and did an intensive satsang with someone, who was also in the lineage of Papaji and Ramana Maharshi. We focused on this ìwho am Iî-question for a month and when I came out of that I was and still am tremendously grateful for this messageÖ

M: I can see that, it shines from your face.

Q: Ö for the whole thing, the revelation that I saw, felt, yet not felt. So I can say that, during these weeks, I did recognize ìwho am Iî, but there is still confusion. I happen to come across another guru, lately. Continuously he is all around me, I see books of him and people who are members of his sangha. He advises that to be one with God, you need to meditate and he prescribes yoga and all kinds of practices, whereas I understood it is enough to just know who I am? I mean, when I realize That, then there is nothing more to do or say, right? Now I hear this other guru and these seem to be contradicting messages.

M: Definitely.

Q: Could you say what you think, feel, whatever?

M: I donít think, I donít feel, so you have to ask questions, then there will be an answer.

Q: Well, this was the question.

M: No, that is not a question. Iím not here to judge, you see.

Q: No, that is not what Iím asking for butÖthe question isÖ what to do? I somehow know there is nothing to do, so I could answer myself, but I mean, I only have one priority in life and that is, that I want to be one with God. All else is really not important in this moment and it is such a tremendous longing. What to do? I canít make it clearer than this.

M: You donít need to do anything. Understanding who you are, is the most precious diamond there is. So if you understand ìI am this diamondî, why should you start to polish marvels? A marvel is also very beautiful, but if you start to polish it, the dust will even be unhealthy for you. If you really understand who you are, you will not get attracted to somebody, who tells you that you have to do something. But this might be a tendency in you, an old tendency, because you have been a yogi, you have been a meditator for many lives. So there are some desires. Furthermore, you have to understand, that already for thousands of years, we in the west have this incredible program, that we have to do something to reach, to get, to become somebody. So Iím tremendously grateful, that I got attracted to this absolute truth, this most precious diamond, that I realized: I am That. So there is no need to do anything. But certainly, if I feel like running, I will run. If I feel like doing yoga on the beach, I will do yoga. And if I feel like sitting in a certain posture to meditate, I will meditate. There is no harm in this, if you know who you are. But Iíve seen many people having this precious diamond in their hands and afterwards they went to certain masters and they lost it again, getting confused again. They had this diamond in their hands and they were not able to appreciate it. They exchanged it for marvels and they went back into confusion, into doing and purifying. What a pity!

Not everything that comes into your life and is around you all the time is meant for you to live it. Iíll give you an extreme example now, which has nothing to do with this teacher you mentioned, whom I donít know, so I canít speak about him. I can only say, that no master will ever tell you: ìYou have to meditateî, just teachers. So, a very extreme example, I live in the center of Amsterdam and whenever I walk in the streets, somebody offers me drugs. Heroin, cocaine, whateverÖ I donít take it, even if it comes into my life everyday. I could tell myself: ìWell, it comes everyday, so there might be a deeper meaning.î I meet them all the time, I know some of these junkies better than my aunt, you see. I havenít seen my aunt for years, but these guys I know, what they offer and what it has done to them and what it would do to me. There is no attraction whatsoever.

Q: I find it extremely hard not to do, to believe this message of ìnot doingî.

M: Because you should not believe it, you see, believing is not enough. You have to look, you have to look deeper. Believing is not enough. If you believe, there might be some effect for some time, but it cannot be eternal. Belief will not free you.

Q: Thatís clear.

M: So then you have to inquire again, ìWho wants to doî? That you want to do, is not bad, it is a program of your personality, a program of your brain and your body, your genes even. So it would be unnatural to say, ìI donít want to doî. You have been programmed like this for many lives, so naturally the attraction comes. It belongs to your person. Now you have to look: ìWho wants? Who is this I who wants?î
I never tell people: donít do this, donít do that. If people want to meditate, they can meditate. Itís just that if you donít know who you are, if you donít understand that you are already free now, then meditation will bind you. It will make you addicted, like somebody who gets addicted to heroin. Some people get addicted to meditation, to yoga and tantra, whatever, and they never arrive. You can arrive in something, like I arrived in, what in the yogic past was called, ìenlightenmentî, a full kundalini-awakening. That is the dream of a yogi, so I must have practiced it for many lifetimes. And when it manifested, it was of course tremendously beautiful, very precious. Iíve read about this experience and nobody seems to have experienced it like I did. Some people already start writing a book as soon as they just have a little flash in their brain. They see some lights andÖî Iím a teacher!î
You have to inquire: ìWhat do I want?î Do I want a sense of community without the need to do anything; or do I want freedom, absolute Freedom.

Q: I want that.

M: You want That? You are That. You are.

Afterwards I could see and accept that even this so-called enlightenment was just a phenomenon, a state, a very beautiful and holy state, a supernatural state. Many teachers get caught in their experiences, these supernatural experiences, and a new religion is born, a new sangha, a new community. Of course one could say: ìSelf has time, so it doesnít matter in how many lifetimes I realize, make another loop again, preparing, training.î But you, your person here, you would like to be free now. Then only accept the most precious diamond. Refuse anything else, even if it means that you will be alone. You have to go for this, as itís the most precious. If I go to a party and everybody is taking drugs, I just say no. Then people start feeling uneasy, because Iím not playing the same game theyíre playing, so the friendship ends. Iím no longer welcome and Iím no longer attracted to stay, because they enter into a different state, which is attracting them. Iím not interested in it, because Iím full, Iím happy. So I will not be a part of that community. Sometimes it can be somewhat tough to be alone. Others are having a party and you are alone.

(silence)

Somebody else? If you donít speak English that well, you can also ask a question in Dutch.

Third questioner: You are talking about freedom, can you explain what you mean by the word ìfreedomî?

M: Freedom cannot be explained, it can only be pointed at. Iím not talking about outer freedom. I donít tell you that you have to change your life, that you should leave your partner and have many girlfriends, for example. Some people think this is freedom. Your lifestyle, your likes and dislikes, have nothing to do with it. I do not speak about outer life, that is up to you, that just happens. You donít need to change anything in your life.

Q: Yes, I understand that.

M: Ok, so we have cleared this part. Itís a very good question, because you create a dilemma for me. Even to talk about freedom is a little stupid as it implies imprisonment. And I tell you: ìYou are free already.. You have always been free. There has never been imprisonment.î So I shouldnít say anything. And sometimes I donít, but I have come to Heerenveen for the first time. So out of a certain respect to you people, as some people may not know what it means, if I come here and sit like this (Madhukar sits in silence to demonstrate), I speak about freedom.

You will be surprised, but except for you and me, there are many people, who believe that they are bound, that they are imprisoned, suffering with their bodies, their relations, their work, their housing, whateverÖ and they try to prove to me that they are not free. Therefore I speak about freedom.

Q: Yes, but I donít feel free either.

M: If you say: ìI donít feel freeî, there must be something that binds you. Show me your handcuffs or show me your braincuffs, so we can see if they are real. Then you will have convinced me. Or you may find out that they are not real. Then this freedom will make sense, it will be immediately here.

Q: Maybe a feeling of not feeling free?

M: Well, this ìmaybeî we have to cut out first, otherwise we can never arrive. Thereís a decision you have to make now, having this feeling of ìnot freeî. If the feeling is ìmaybeî, then we should not talk about it.

Q: Okay.

M: So, a feeling of ìnot being freeî? And in the night when you sleep?

Q: Then Iím free.

M: Then you are free, okay. So you can already see that this feeling of being ìnot freeî is not permanent. Itís there only sometimes, and that is a basic understanding, that everything that comes and goes cannot be absolute Truth, because when we talk about freedom, we donít talk about outer freedom ,as we both agreed on. We talk about something that is eternal. States that come and go are not eternal, therefore I would say right away that itís imagination. Now I just have to prove that to you.

Q: Yes please.

M: While you sleep, your body rests, your brain rests. Sometimes itís active and you enter a dream-state and in this a feeling of ìbeing not freeî can also happen. So even in a dream you create the same states. You could create this entire situation here, that you sit here with the microphone in your hand, with all these people around you, and you would experience exactly the same. Even if youíve never seen it before, you can just imagine the same scene as you imagine reality now. Thatís interesting, but thatís just a sideline of where I want to lead you now. There is something, which sees your thoughts or what you call a feeling of ìbeing not freeî. So here is a deeper dimension, something deeper that sees a feeling ìnot freeî. Until now, you might have identified with this feeling saying: ìI am not free.î Now you can look, you see ìIî and you see a feeling, which says ìnot freeî. And naturally, if you are feeling ìunfreeî, either you become frustrated and you resign, or you try to be free, you try to do something. You try to meditate, to change your girlfriend, whatever it may be, you try to change something. Here you are feeling ìunfreeî and that is not really what you want. You want to be happy. Everybody here wants to be happy. So now you came to someone experiencing this, and I use this experience to tell you that if you continue to concentrate on this feeling of ìunfreeî, it will not help you. But if you turn around and concentrate on this ìIî, who sees or feels, then something can happen. What will happen? First, you will find out that until now you have accepted this ìIî as a person, which has been identified with states of changing feelings. Letís say you are feeling ìunfreeî, and the telephone rings. Somebody calls you and you happily talk with him. You donít feel ìunfreeî that very moment. Then the phonecall is finished and again you sit alone in your apartment, feeling extremely ìunfreeî. So these are changing states. And you see this. So who is this ìYouî? Who is this ìIî? You concentrate on this and you will find out, that this ìIî is just made up of feelings and thoughts, which is the same. It is just imagination. And there is some consciousness, some awareness that sees this ìIî. Now you go deeper and you do not even concentrate on this ìIî anymore, you concentrate on this Self. Are you following me?

Q: Yes, butÖidentification with the sadness and depression is always coming back and I cannot become free from it.

M: It always came back. You have to change your grammar. It always came back until now. Donít program it into the future. It did not work until now, because until now you were concentrating on this feeling of ìunfreeî. Now I tell you to concentrate on ìIî, not on the feelings. Do it right now! You sit here? Thatís obvious. Can we agree on this? Are you here?

Q: Yes.

M: You are here. I am here. So we are both here. This we can agree on. All right, so what is here?

Q: What is here? I am here, you are here, a lot of people are here.

M: Ok, I agree. And are you still concentrating on this feeling ìunfreeî? Right now, you donít concentrate on this feeling ìunfreeî, so do you feel ìunfreeî?

Q: I feel sad.

M: Ok, so let sadness be there too. Sadness is your guest. Sadness visits you. Is it always here or only now?

Q: No, itís not always here.

M: Is it because of me?

Q: No.

M: Because Iím not wearing a colorful shirt? You were sitting here all this time being sad and you didnít immediately ask for help? You came here, paid the entrance fee and were sad? And you didnít immediately say: Hey, help, Iím sad? Thatís strange. How long would you like to carry that with you? How long would you like to continue like this?

Q: Not long, I hope.

M: Donít hope. You have to look. Hope doesnít help. Just throw it away right now. You can give it to me if you want. I will take it with me to Amsterdam. There is so much sadness there on the streets, that one more bag of garbage doesnít matter; you just give it to me. So whenever sadness comes, you see there is a witness. Now you donít concentrate on this sadness. Neither do you imagine or try to get happiness. You simply concentrate on your Self. Now you start smiling, thatís not a sign of sadness.

Q: Itís sort of a sad smile.

M: Is it your profession?

Q: No.

M: You donít make money with it? You are not a clown in a circus? Youíre not a politician either? If you would be a clown or a politician you could make money with a sad smile, but you are not earning money with it, so why should you keep it?

Q: I donít know? Itís simply there.

M: Where is there? Before you said itís here, now you say itís there. Where is it?

Q: Somewhere in me.

M: What do you mean by ìsomewhereî? Where is it, in one of your legs, the knee, your kidney? Itís an imagination. Therefore, donít try to change it. If you like, you can even make it bigger and let it explode, because certain parts have to explode. The sadness will come out at a certain point. Or you just see that this sadness takes place in you and it comes and goes. It changes, sometimes itís more, sometimes less. And itís somewhere in your body, as you say. Now simply concentrate on this consciousness that sees this. Do you follow? Check it out!

What is happening?

Q: I still feel sad.

M: Well, it must be very attractive to you if you like to keep it. It must be very precious to you. It must give you something. What does it give you? Do you feel special with your sadness? No, you are not special with this sadness. Many people are sad, millions, BILLIONS! So you are not special! Your experience with this sadness is, that it has always been here, so this you program into the future, that it will always be here. Thatís your experience, isnít it? How did it start?

Q: I havenít always been sad.

M: So it started at a certain point. Something happened one time. Some people go into therapies, they want to find out the reason why it happened. For example, in your childhood your brother stole your big chocolate cake and sadness from then on, something like this, your brother was always mean to you, whatever. They always find something that happened in your childhood. But I donít do this. I just invite you to look right now if this is your true Self. For those who are willing to look, immediate release happens. It does happen in Satsang, instant healing. Itís not part of my profession to be a healer, but I was in Switzerland recently and there an old woman came to me, who had been in pain her whole life. And she was willing to get rid of it. Thatís very special. Most people donít like to give it away, because they have nothing else, nothing but pain, sickness, sadness. What else have you got?

Q: There is also happiness.

M: Happiness is also here? Both are here, happiness and sadness? Okay, they belong together, you see. So who sees happiness or sadness? Please speak, this time is precious, make good use of it. So speak spontaneously, donít think!

Q: ConsciousnessÖ

M: Consciousness? I have never had the experience that consciousness is happy or sad. In this consciousness, happiness takes place and sadness takes place and as I say, if you concentrate either on happiness or sadness, there will be suffering. If you know ìI am Consciousnessî, happiness will make you happy and sadness will make you sad, but you just know ìI am Consciousnessî. Then you are free, then circumstances come and go and you are untouched. But it is not enough to just repeat the words. It will be just a concept. Therefore I advise you, whenever you find yourself in a state, enquire: ìWho am I? Who sees this sadness? Who sees this happiness?î And I promise you, that it will disappear.

Fourth questioner: In connection with self-realization, I came across stories about kundalini-experiences. Sometimes they happen, sometimes they donít, but there must be something in it, because they so often go together.

Madhukar: Thatís not true. You donít need to have any kind of kundalini-experience to realize who you are. I just mentioned it to explain that I had to find out that this is NOT absolute Truth. Itís just a phenomenon. Thatís very important. Iím not telling this to separate myself from people who donít have these experiences. I tell you very clearly that itís not necessary! Go directly to your Heart, directly to the Source and find out who you are. Donít waste time with any kind of experiences, not even these kundalini-experiences, go directly, instantly, now. Thatís the best. Then you donít care what happens, because this ìwho you areî is so clear, so precious, so much more beautiful than any experience. And because itís so very, very simple, it is overseen. It is very simple. Therefore I can say that you are realized. If you waste your time reading books about kundalini and try to have these experiences, then you are bound to oversee what you are. So simply go directly. Itís not in the past. Freedom is here and now. So even the desire for any kind of experience, even a yogic experience, something that sounds very attractive, is a hindrance, so I cannot advise you to waste any second to this, because each second means separation and ìwho you areî is here, in the eternal now.

Thank you for asking this question to clarify this, itís very important.

Q: I already knew the answer.

M: Great, but you serve everybody else in the room by clarifying this, thank you.

Q: Could you also clarify what keeps me back from realizing my true Self?

M: Well, this time you give the answer right away, because you seem to know already.

Q: It seems to be simply a habit, the habit of being a person.

M: Yes, the person is habitual, absolutely. The person is a robot.

Q: So itís programmed?

M: Yes.

Q: And there is only one way of dealing with it and that is simply throwing it away? It seems to be difficult.

M: Well, I donít recommend this, otherwise people may throw themselves into the lake afterwards and tomorrow in the newspaper it will read: ìIn this satsang, afterwards everybody went to the lake throwing themselves away.î No, please enjoy your life, enjoy your body, enjoy whatever you do.

Q: Actually, that is one of the difficulties, something that puzzles me, because if I realize who I am, then what is the point of going on living as a human being?

M: Happiness, fun, enjoyment, beauty.

Q: Yes. Then it must be something simply to enjoy, to experience, a kind of game?

M: You can see it like this. It is said to be Maya, illusion. You just live your life. Its fun, itís good, itís very simple. If youíre tired, you sleep, if youíre hungry, you eat. Itís beautiful.

Q: Ok. I will go on with it.

M: Thank you.

Fifth questioner: If you ask the question ìwho am Iî, then at the end of this, it seems there is only space. The question dissolves into space, but is that the end of it or is space then seen by something even more subtle? Thatís what puzzles me.

Madhukar: Well, space is extremely subtle, space is empty. You have asked a very good question, a very refined question, because there is still something subtler, more subtle than the subtlest. This is You, and in This the whole universe takes place, including space. The whole universe begins and ends in This, every instant being created and dying. Itís just the person that sees continuity. You say that you inquire into ìwho am Iî, and there is space. That means your person has dissolved, your programs have dissolved, your fears have dissolved, your frustration, your anger, your desire, your happiness. Everything has dissolved in space ñ Absolute Freedom. Enjoy this, melt entirely with This and you will still be able to do whatever is needed in life. You have to jump into this understanding. Then you will see if there is still a pull to go deeper and then you follow this pull. But once you are there, when you have completely melted with this space, you donít need to do anymore, because it will pull you in, Self will pull Self in. No doer is needed anymore. Even this ìwho am Iî is not really a doing anymore, once you have really understood it. At first it might look like doing, like inquiring, but then itís just That, waking up from the dream. Now you just melt with this, you celebrate this. And if something wants to pull you into something even deeper than this subtle space, then it will take care of itself; you donít need to do anything. However, if you still feel the urge to do, if you look into that ìspaceî out of your mind, although it can be very inspiring and relieving, it is not enough. So just let this happen.

Q: But the first thing you notice, when you wake up in the morning or when you want to know who you are, is being present, but before being presence, you were also That.

M: That is not my experience. My experience is: there is always presence, but this presence is so subtle, that we are not aware of it. But still, if you sleep in the night and the next morning someone asks you: ìHow did you sleep?î Youíd say: ìI slept very well.î How do you know? You were gone, how could you say you slept well? Because this witness never sleeps.

Q: That is your experience?

M: Thatís my experience, yes. Iíve ever been here and I will ever be here.

Sixth questioner: I donít know how to give words to it. You can say itís finished, I can say itís finished; just like that, you can take the jump. Then it will continue to be so for a little while and then there is something I have to do.

Madhukar: Really? Are you totally convinced you have to do this. So you like to be in sadness for some time and then again ìjump into itî as you say? And then you like to go back to sadness? Like this, it will continue for some time, thatís your program.

Q: Yes, it feels like whenever I go into silence, then when I come back, I can feel the sadness more deeply.

M: Letís do it now. You come into silence and then you see if there is sadness. You say you can see it more deeply, so letís go into it right now. So if you are so experienced in it, it doesnít matter if you will be sad one more time.

Q: Itís eternal.

M: No, it is not eternal. I cannot accept this, because if it would be eternal, then it wouldnít come and go. What is eternal, is this underlying Truth, That You Are. I donít want to convince you. You have to experience it, you have to see. So please tell me, is silence here now?

(silence)

M: So now please speak out of whatever is. Donít look back into experiences you had before, nor of how it should be in the future, just speak from now.

You are smiling, so I cannot see sadness. In this ìnowî there is no sadness, so how is this possible?

Q: I think there is also sadness now.

M: No, you think in this very moment. Just before when you were here, there was no sadness. Then you said: ìI thinkî, and then you were looking back into past and sadness came. I could see that.

Q: In this smile, there was compassion for my own sadness, but the sadness wasnít gone.

M: It looks like compassion, but itís addiction!

Q: Addiction?

M: Addiction, yes, itís not compassion. Itís passion! It creates suffering. But I know and respect that you defend this, because it has given you a strong feeling of ìIî. You experienced, you felt yourself. At least you were not dead. You felt yourself in this suffering and you defend this and say: ìThis is also here, this is also God, this is also good.î And I respect this, because I was also defending certain personal traits. You see, I was angry. So I looked why there is anger; I looked into my childhood, and into my parents childhood, my nationality, into middle age, and stone age, and manhood, and humanity. Deeper and deeper and deeper, and there was still some anger. And I saw that it is unending, it will never end. If this is your lineage, it will be unending. It is what you would call ìeternalî, but it is illusion. The moment you stop asking ìWhy?î, but dare to ask, ìWho? Who sees this?î, something happens. First, you might have to face this, anger in my case, in your case, whatever you want to call it: ìsadnessî or ìcompassion for sadnessî. But now you have to go deeper, ìwho sees this?î And donít care if more sadness comes. Thatís okay for me, honestly, I donít care. I know who you are, I donít care if there is sadness or happiness. I see who you are. Okay, my human compassion likes you to be more at ease and happy, because who is happy if you are sad. If you would be a poet, it might be useful. They say: ìI have to be sad, otherwise I cannot write poetry.î So I like you to be happy, but this is just my human program, my Christian program. From the point of Self, Iím very much at ease with your suffering. But Self also invites you to look and see if this is really ìeternalî, or if itís illusion. So you cannot lose anything, because if it is not Truth that I speak, you can just continue and celebrate your sadness. So you donít lose anything. But if it is true, it will stay with you all the time, and when the night is through, you will realize who you are in an instant. Then sadness still might come, because it is a part of your program and it has been stored in your body, in your cells, in your emotional self, and so on. So this might continue, because the cause of this is very old. These waves may continue for some time, but you will know, ìI am not thatî, ìI am Here, I am that Truth, that Peace, that Silenceî. Then this celebration of sadness will not stay with you. You will lose interest, like I lost interest in anger, in celebrating its beauty, just because it comes with such strength. Of course this is also divine. Nothing is not divine. But you are deeper than any divinity: you are That, Absolute Truth.
So now Shiva is a little angry with me, because he loves anger too. All these divine gods are a bit angry with me, but they cannot touch me. Iím untouchable. And they envy me. They want to be in Satsang, because even gods suffer. They have been longer than you in this mess: ten thousand years of happiness and suffering.
So now, do you dare to ask this question: ìWho sees?î Itís a risk!
Itís a risk, because this suffering, this sadness will not stay with you. And it is very seldom, that is the experience of Ramana and of my master Papaji, it is very seldom that somebody wants to be free. Maybe you are the one, this very precious one, who wants to be free.